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      1. Better than this

        ??If we weren't better than this, this wouldn't bother so many people.??
        — NeoWayland
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        Two and only two alternatives

        ??When someone starts offering two and only two alternatives, that's the cue to look for the fourth, fifth, and sixth choices.??
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        “I have two”

        I have two guns in my household for self-defense, just so you know.
        — Alyssa Milano
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        We?

        Americans are pretty easy-going. But push them too far, and they will remind their would-be “betters” that they are citizens, not subjects. That’s who “we” are.
        — Chuck de Caro, What Do You Mean, ‘We’?

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        NeoNote — A different myth

        ??Strictly speaking, what makes you think the apple was unintended in that myth?



        Think about that very carefully for a moment.

        Although never explicitly stated, the implication is that nothing could happen in that garden without the approval of it's Creator. That includes the existence of the tree, the existence of the fruit, the existence of the "serpent," and the curiosity of Eve.

        So the "Creator" didn't know the possibilities and what would happen, wasn't the real "Creator" (as some Gnostics believed), or the garden was never supposed to be anything except a transitory state.

        This last is the commonly accepted alternative. Eden is a metaphor for childhood, something that must be put aside if the person and the culture is to survive. It's not about the "Fall," it's about adaptation and outgrowing what was once enough.??
        NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.

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        Political orientation

        ??Political orientation isn't the problem. Politics is.??
        — NeoWayland
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        NeoNote — The urge to meddle

        ??Within our borders, absolutely we should have Truth, Justice, and the American way.

        Outside, no. We should be an inspiration, not a hegemony.??
        — NeoWayland
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        Measure

        ??Measure a man in the lives he touched.??
        — NeoWayland
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        NeoNote — Not right or left

        ??Rather than citing examples of "rightness" being a mental illness, I think I will just cite the old idiom Moderation in all things.

        I will say that from my perspective it's not "right" or "left" that is wrong per se, but the desire to control others while avoiding the consequences of your own actions. The reasons and the justifications change, not the actions.



        Just where do you think the "left" learned the self-righteous, sanctimonious posturing?

        Frankly, I don't care who did it first, second, or most recently. Or what the scoreboard says.

        You're playing the game, perpetuating the problem. And I have absolutely no assurance that if "your guys" win, my life will be better. Just your promises, which are worth exactly nothing based on past experience.

        After all, you've just admitted that you can't stand dissent and disagreement.



        If I've no investment in the ideology and your side "breaks the rules" to suppress dissent, then there is no benefit for me to support "the system" no matter which side "wins."

        I'd be better off bringing down the whole mess and helping people pick up the pieces afterwards.

        That's the stakes you're playing for. Not if your side wins, but if there will be a game left to play, or even if there will be recognizable sides.

        So thought experiments aside, are you willing to play with these stakes?



        The rules of the game mean you can't win. Neither can they. Oh, each side trades advantage with the other, but the conflict goes on and feeds on itself.

        That's not being heroic, that's being damn stupid. What good does it do to protect the widows and orphans when there is no safe place to go?



        Of course there are rules of the game, number one being winner take all. Number two being that the "truth" of the argument is determined by the winner of the conflict. Number three is that winning the conflict grants the power to silence dissent. Number four is that the conflict is far too important to allow ordinary people to ask questions.

        This isn't Darwin, this isn't the nature of man, this is an artificial construct.

        Should I go on?

        I never claimed that I didn't answer. I implied you were asking the wrong questions. When anyone reduces things to an either/or premise, that is usually the case.



        There you go again, assuming the only response is either/or.

        You think winning is the answer.

        I want to remove the possibility of either side winning and starting the conflict all over again.

        Because after you win, after you put down your sword and gun, after you take a deep breath on the field of battle, I and those like me will be there.

        Pointing at you.

        Laughing.

        And you won't be able to touch us.

        Sometimes you don't have to win. Sometimes it's enough to keep the other guys from crossing the finish line and claiming their bloodstained glory.



        If you think the socialists winning means that the President, Congress, and the courts have unrestrained power, then you already lost.

        And they have exactly as much power over you as you choose to give them.



        Either/or is a self-imposed trap. It presupposes that there are two and only two alternatives.

        The greatest single expansion of the Deep State was signed into law by a Republican.



        Would it help you understand my point if I (truthfully) told you that since a month or two after the handoff, I've said that Hong Kong will be remembered in history as the City That Ate A Country?



        It's not a matter of free market DNA. It's the fact that Hong Kong has the most capitalist and competitive society on the face of the planet.

        I agree we're talking at cross purposes. You see it as all wrapped up and I see a Gordian knot. In the case of Hong Kong, a free Hong Kong has a greater value than the Chinese military.

        But for now, let's agree that we do disagree and move on.



        And that is when you change the game.



        Did you accept the rule set before you started playing?



        Well, that is a interesting philosophical premise.

        I'd agree that for most purposes, there appears to be an objective reality. From my purely subjective perspective of course. But pursuing that goes way beyond our conversation here.

        Are the units autonomous? Well, that's another philosophical bit. For example, is the planet aware? Restricting our conversation to humans, are humans autonomous? I'd have to say that most individuals are not. No matter what the politics.

        Are humans and specifically "leftists" dangerous? They can be, and mostly want to be. Are they more dangerous than "rightists?"

        No.

        As I said political orientation isn't the problem. Politics is.



        I prefer Nolan's chart to the right-left dichotomy.

        Politics is controlling the other.

        I've spent a lifetime dealing with those who want to control others. Some do in the name of environmentalism, some do in the name of Divine moral authority, some do it for the "greater good." The justification changes, but the methods don't.



        One of my biggest frustrations in today's politics is that people overlook what "their" side does even as they denounce the "other" side for doing the exact same thing.

        We've reached the point where what is done is not nearly as important as who did it.

        Meanwhile liberty takes a hit.



        *shrugs*

        My problem here is once you've won, then what? Especially if in victory you claim power and authority that you never should have had.

        Earlier you told me that if the socialists won in 2020, I'll personally lose. My response was to point out that if the EEEEEVVVIIILLLL forces of government already had power to screw me on some technocrat's or politico's whim, then there is no point in me supporting your side because freedom is already gone.

        Sure, you promise to fix it, you promise to Do The Right Thing, and I should believe that why?

        The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.
        — H.L. Mencken



        Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan between them escalated the "War On Drugs" and enabled the narco-state. Mandatory minimum sentences were made possible by the Sentencing Reform Act of 1984. Wide scale civil forfeiture including sharing funds and proceeds with local police agencies was made legal by the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984. The 1208 program and the militarization of local police dates to 1990, although it was changed to the 1033 program and was expanded in 1996. The USA PATRIOT Act was signed into law by Bush League.

        This is only a small portion of things that have happened on a Federal level.

        I ask for nothing except the freedom to live my life as I choose while accepting responsibility for my choices.

        Who is the "right" to deny me those things?



        I'm going to point out again that you're willing to overlook the abuses of "your guys" while going after the "other guys."

        I want less government than absolutely necessary. What I see is a long history of Republicans and conservatives who want to expand government, regulation, and spending. The Deep State owes just as much to Republicans than to Democrats.

        I don't care who is "in charge." I don't care who is to blame.

        I want less government than absolutely necessary.



        I gave specific examples of Republicans abusing power in ways that rival anything that Democrats have done or will do.

        You are stuck on the label when you should be looking at the institution.



        “Nothing R's have done in your lifetime can compare to the damage of the D's.”

        Watergate.

        Ford's pardoning of Nixon.

        Ford's "Hail Mary" pass to save the CIA and his nomination of George H.W. Bush to director. Since it was before my birth, we'll ignore the rumors about Bush's CIA related activities between 1959 and 1964. Also before my time but I'm doing extra credit, the question remains why Bush was pretty much the one American in his generation who could not "remember" where he was on November 22, 1963.

        Iran-Contra.

        Changing of banking laws and regulations during the early 1980s, leading to the savings and loan crisis, the eradication of regional banks, and the consolidation of American banks and investment firms into selected giants.

        The USA PATRIOT Act, literally the climax of decades old Deep State wet dreams. Start with Inslaw and PROMIS, look at the Danny Casolaro murder, and then look at what has happened the last twenty years.

        I could go on and on. I haven't even touched on what happened with the Contract With America, or how the leaders of both major parties colluded and conspired against the Tea Party.

        The vice or virtue is not in the label. Democrats and the left are not especially evil. Republicans and conservatives don't get a free pass because they are doing the wrong thing for the "right" reasons.

        I wanted to make this about government, the abuse of power and politics in general. You were the one making the case that Democrats and the left were irredeemably evil while Republicans and conservatives were mostly good.



        First, stop blaming "leftists" for the evils of government.

        Second, accept that the label Republican, conservative, or "rightist" doesn't make you saints or even the best qualified.

        When you've done that, I'm ready to talk about the next bit.



        I gave you examples, including Republicans who actively broke the law.

        As for Republicans being the lesser evil, is there a one of them since Eisenhower who did anything other than go through the motions?



        Start by admitting it is a government problem and not a Republican or Democrat situation.

        Stop making excuses because some of your interests happen to line up at the time.

        Until you do that, you're not ready to have this conversation.



        You're treating a premise as an Article of Faith Not To Be Questioned.

        As long as you hold onto that, you won't believe what I say or accept any solution that I propose. Because under that premise, it's absolute nonsense and can't possibly be anything else.

        Or the premise is invalid.



        That is not true.

        There has to be a commonality to build on, especially for deeply held beliefs.

        For example, I don't think humans need to be saved. So talking to me about a guy nailed to a cross isn't really going to resonate. Likewise, unless you accept anthropogenic climate change, the notion of a climate crisis won't make sense.

        As for giving my views and the solutions, I have.



        “There has to be rationality.”

        Since when? Empires have risen and fallen without rationality. Trade agreements have been negotiated without rationality. Probably fewer than ten percent of Americans living right now are rational by any definition except they obey the rules they've been given.

        Just to point it out again, I have stated the problem and the solution repeatedly. You reject the premise and therefore don't believe me. Government is the problem, even if it is a "friendly" government controlled by people you like. As long as you look to government for solutions, you make the problem worse.

        Case in point, you've mentioned several times that we need to remove the left ideology from public schools and universities. Our public school system was created in part so that government could control what was taught. Did it never occur to you that as long as schools were publicly funded and government controlled, you can never remove the ideas that you don't like? Rather than taking control of schools and universities, maybe the answer is let the schools compete in a free market. The schools that can deliver value will thrive, the others won't. It's worked for everything from rye flour to smartphones, there is no reason to think it wouldn't work incredibly well for schools.



        I haven't said anything about moral equivalence.

        I just don't think that we should trust politicos to store and transport nuclear sludge in Hefty bags.

        Don't tell me about the "virtues" of Republicans. Tell me why, despite their claimed support of smaller government, they haven't done anything substantial since JFK.

        And he was a Democrat.



        You've been telling me how virtuous the Republicans are. I'm telling you that based on their behavior, they aren't. There's less than a handful of effective Republican politicos on a national level who demonstrate honor and character. It's not because they are Republicans, it's because they have honor and character.

        I gave you specific, catastrophic, and freedom destroying examples of highly placed Republicans turning government against the people. Some were felonies, and some weren't felonies only because no one had enacted laws against them yet.

        I have offered solutions, you just don't like what I offered since it doesn't give conservatives legal and "moral" advantages that can be exploited against "leftists" because they are leftists.

        “Just as we don't want other ideals imposed on us, we shouldn't impose our ideals on others. No matter how convinced we are that we are right.”

        “The only thing they are really giving up is the power to compel behavior in others.”

        You can't depend on government to do it for you.



        Before Trump, who was doing it?

        After Trump, who will continue doing it?

        And that is assuming that Trump is a net benefit, something I do not believe.

        All I've said is that Republicans aren't saints or "the better choice" because they are Republicans. The evidence supports my claims.

        You've said that Democrats are more inherently more evil than Republicans. The evidence doesn't support your claims.

        Show me people of honor and character and I will consider supporting them.

        Show me Republicans and I will insist on honor and character. Show me Democrats and I will insist on honor and character. The label doesn't get a pass.

        A man is measured in the lives he touched.



        BTW, mandatory minimums, civil forfeiture of property without criminal convictions, and the militarization of police are hardly minor, superficial issues.



        Your entire argument boils down to government is worse with Democrats in charge.

        My argument is that government threatens liberty and rights no matter who is "calling the shots."

        I gave you specific examples during Republican presidencies that have led to massive abuse of power.

        I am not saying that Republicans are as bad as Democrats. I am saying that government is bad and it's time we reduced it's power and scope.

        Otherwise we're fighting over who gets to be in charge with no evidence that Republicans are better or Democrats are better.



        As long as we have government, let's make it too small to screw up our lives.

        We have conditioned generations to believe that government is all wise and mostly benevolent. That government is the first, best, and last solution. That any problem can be fixed with more money and government expertise.

        Provided no one asks inconvenient questions.

        Me, I think government is radioactive and corrosive. I think it is occasionally useful in extreme circumstances but only if it is behind thirteen layers of protection. I think the risks of invoking government outweigh the benefits by several orders of magnitude.

        And I do not trust anyone to use it wisely.

        As far as the criminal abuse of the alphabet agencies, why do you think it began with Obama against Trump???
        NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.

        Comments

        “Stossel: Let Charter Schools Teach”


        Besides the competition, there are two things to remember.

        The parents want their kids in these schools and out of the public schools.

        The students want to be there or they soon leave.

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        Should have a voice

        Thanks to this Wild Hunt article, I learned that there according to the 1835 New Echota treaty the Cherokee are supposed to have a delegate in the U.S. House of Representatives.

        I think this is a great idea and I would make only two changes. I don't think that there should be any non-voting members of the House, all delegates should have a vote.

        And I think that every Amerindian tribe recognized by the U.S. government should have a member in the U.S. House.

        You should only get Senators if you are a state, but all tribes and protectorates should have an active voice in Congress.

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        Nuclear alternatives

        A Very Fast, Very Safe, Very SLIMM Nuclear Reactor

        One of the latest to emerge is the SLIMM – the Scalable LIquid Metal–cooled small Modular reactor. This is a fast reactor that uses liquid sodium (Na) to cool and exchange heat, and that generates 10 to 100 MW for many years, even decades, without refueling, depending on what power level is desired. It’s very smaller version, the VSLIMM, generates 1 to 10 MW.

        Its designers, Drs. Mohamed S. El-Genk, Luis Palomino and Timothy Schriener from the University of New Mexico’s Institute for Space and Nuclear Power Studies in Albuquerque, describe it thus:

        "Fully passive operation with no single point failure, cooled by natural circulation of sodium during operation and after shutdown, high negative temperature reactivity feedback and redundant control and safety shutdown, walk-away safe, long life without refueling, factory fabricated, assembled and sealed, shipped to the construction site by rail, truck, or barge, installed below ground to avoid direct impact by missiles or aircraft, and mounted on seismic oscillation bearings to resist earthquakes.”

        The reactor has redundant and passive decay heat removal by heat pipes and natural circulation of ambient air.

        In other words, it can’t melt down, is cheap to construct and only needs ordinary outside air to cool off if it does shut down quickly for any reason. With Na’s very low vapor pressure, the reactor operates below atmospheric pressure so there is no pressure vessel to worry about.
             — James Conca

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        Windows into men's souls

        I have no desire to make windows into men's souls.
        — Elizabeth I

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        Bridge too far

        Chairman Xi went a bridge too far in trying to seize control of Hong Kong. He is not dealing with barefoot villagers in the rice provinces. Hong Kong is a cleaner version of New York City. He is the emperor who controls everything except the city that keeps his empire afloat.
        — Don Surber, Xi blinks in Hong Kong

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        Exceptions & exemption

        If the current "red flag law" proposals are any indication, almost all the criteria will certainly be political.

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        Three boxes

        A man’s rights rest in three boxes. The ballot box, jury box and the cartridge box. Let no man be kept from the ballot box because of his color. Let no woman be kept from the ballot box because of her sex.
        — Frederick Douglass, speech on November 15, 1867

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        “Sixteen Tons”

        “You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
        Another day older and deeper in debt”

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        NeoNote — Gun checks

        ??A terrifyingly surprising number of police officers also have "incidents of domestic abuse in their background." Not most to be sure, but the field seems to draw some really f…ed up people. Worse, police are legally shielded from the consequences of their own actions.

        If the current "red flag law" proposals are any indication, almost all the criteria will certainly be political. Considering that most people including psychiatrists and psychologists are incapable of judging competence, motives, or morality without some intense analysis, that is asking for trouble.

        Here's what you do not want to acknowledge. Most people are not criminal. Most gun owners don't casually shoot other people or property. And there is not a single background check that will prevent every possible mass shooter.

        Now I could go on and on. I could point out that American gun laws originated to keep guns out of the hands of "blacks". I could list the puppycide incidents. I could point out the militarization of police, especially in the "War on Drugs." All of this overlooks one very simple thing. The Second Amendment exists because the Founders did not trust government.

        All your suggestions, all your proposals, everything you've said will arm more government agents while making the populace unarmed. Tell me, do you want Trump's government heavily armed while you are not???
        NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.

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        The question changes

        ??If government is not a net benefit, then the question “What can government do?” changes to “How do we limit costs?”??
        — NeoWayland, liberty question
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        Biochar

        Biochar: A better start to rain forest restoration

        An indigenous farming technique that’s been around for thousands of years provides the basis for restoring rain forests stripped clear of trees by gold mining and other threats.

        A carbon-based soil amendment called biochar is a cheap and effective way to support tree seedling survival during reforestation efforts in the Amazon rain forest, according to new research from Wake Forest University’s Center for Amazonian Scientific Innovation (CINCIA).

        Restoring and recovering rain forests has become increasingly important for combatting climate change, since these wide swaths of trees can absorb billions of tons of carbon dioxide each year. The problem is particularly acute in areas mined for alluvial gold deposits, which devastate not only rain forest trees but also soils. High costs can be a huge barrier to replanting, fertilizing and nurturing trees to replace those lost in the rain forest.

        The scientists found that using biochar combined with fertilizer significantly improved height and diameter growth of tree seedlings while also increasing the number of leaves the seedlings developed. The experiment, based in a Peruvian Amazon region called Madre de Dios, the heart of illegal gold mining trade in that country, used two tropical tree species: the fast-growing Guazuma crinita and Terminalia amazonia, a late successional tree often used as timber.
             — Alicia Roberts
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        Government makes you poorer

        If we're going to have a conversation, these facts must be a part of that.

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        Organized Religion and Organized Crime

        Organized Religion and Organized Crime are two sides to the same coin. They both want to control you and they do it through fear. Organized crime threatens you with death of yourself and your loved ones; organized religion threatens you with eternal damnation.
        — Kalinysta

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        NeoNote — Let's discuss guns

        If we're going to have a conversation, these facts must be a part of that.

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        Gun violence

        “Who Inflicts the Most Gun Violence in America?”

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        Ways to spend money

        There are four ways in which you can spend money.  You can spend your own money on yourself.  When you do that, why then you really watch out what you’re doing, and you try to get the most for your money.  Then you can spend your own money on somebody else.  For example, I buy a birthday present for someone.  Well, then I’m not so careful about the content of the present, but I’m very careful about the cost.  Then, I can spend somebody else’s money on myself.  And if I spend somebody else’s money on myself, then I’m sure going to have a good lunch!  Finally, I can spend somebody else’s money on somebody else.  And if I spend somebody else’s money on somebody else, I’m not concerned about how much it is, and I’m not concerned about what I get.  And that’s government.  And that’s close to 40% of our national income.
        — Milton Friedman

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        The wealthy poor

        The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most Nations of Europe

        A groundbreaking study by Just Facts has discovered that after accounting for all income, charity, and non-cash welfare benefits like subsidized housing and Food Stamps—the poorest 20% of Americans consume more goods and services than the national averages for all people in most affluent countries. This includes the majority of countries in the prestigious Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), including its European members. In other words, if the U.S. “poor” were a nation, it would be one of the world’s richest.

        Notably, this study was reviewed by Dr. Henrique Schneider, professor of economics at Nordakademie University in Germany and the chief economist of the Swiss Federation of Small and Medium-Sized Enterprises. After examining the source data and Just Facts’ methodology, he concluded: “This study is sound and conforms with academic standards. I personally think it provides valuable insight into poverty measures and adds considerably to this field of research.”
             — James D. Agresti
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        “Heterosexuality "Not Working"? POLITICAL LESBIANISM | Ep 72”


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        Some works

        ??Some works speak to the ages, and some whimper to the egos.??
        — NeoWayland
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        Culture is syncretic

        Why are taxpayer dollars collected by force being spent on a playground? Any playground?

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        Commerce and the law

        ??Once the law starts recognizing and enforcing differences, of course the rich and powerful will find ways to exploit and control the law. Of course politicos and technocrats will sell out and protect "their" companies from competition and "threats."

        When the law complicates commerce, the law will be abused. This is not the fault of commerce or capitalism. This is the fault of influence peddling and politics. The only solutions are to have law control more and more, or to get law out of the way. The first way benefits established companies and government.

        The second way is the only practical way to restore freedom and loosen cash flow.??
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        Wise motto

        The job of social media is to provide access while people make up their own minds.

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        Playing around

        Why are taxpayer dollars collected by force being spent on a playground? Any playground?

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        “Trump's Deregulation”

        “President Trump both cut and increased regulation.”

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        Public forum vs. publisher

        ??A public forum is mostly open to anyone who would speak and write, but the owners and operators of the forum can't be held responsible for what others write and say.

        A publisher selects content and is responsible for what is written and said.

        The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution does not apply to private entities or individuals.

        Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act is a decent compromise. If I am a publisher or broadcaster or webmaster, I'm under no obligation to provide a place for your thoughts and opinions. My choice controls the content. But that makes me responsible for the content.

        If I don't provide the content, then I don't have liability.

        The more moderation I provide, the more liability.

        The job of social media is to provide access while people make up their own minds.??
        — Adapted from public forum vs. publisher in NeoWayland's lexicon
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        “PragerU v. YouTube”

        Are you trying to make me irritated with you?

        You keep going off on these anti-pagan rants.

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        “Voice of Freedom”

        There's a bit of a story behind this one.

        Back in 1980, somebody brought me a record from the National Association for Broadcasters convention. It was the audio track for a film presentation that a company called Tomorrow Media had put together. It had a decent science fiction story. But it also had one remarkable music track. I wasn't the only one who thought so, the song made the Billboard Hot 100 that year.


        Voice of Freedom

        Jim Kirk and the TM Singers
        I want a world
        Where kids can play
        And there’s plenty of food to eat

        I want a world
        Where I can speak
        And know that I’ll be free

        I want a world
        That’s full of love
        Where kids are taught that God’s above

        I want a world
        That doesn’t waste
        So when we’re moms and dads it’s still a beautiful place

        I want a world
        Just like America
        Like the USA
        Cause even though
        Perfect it’s not
        It’s the best thing this world’s got

        Oh we’re the voice of Freedom
        We’re the voice of America
        And we’re only people
        But we’re united again
        Then you can say
        We’re conceited
        You can say
        We’re too proud
        But a lot of our friends have died
        For what we have

        I want a land
        American pride
        American side
        American
        I want to be All American
        I want to eat
        American
        I want to sleep
        American
        I want to be American
        I want to be All American

        Oh we’re the voice of Freedom
        We’re the voice of America
        And we’re only people
        But we’re united again
        Then you can say
        We’re conceited
        You can say
        We’re too proud
        But a lot of our friends have died
        For what we have

        I want a world
        Where kids can play
        And there’s plenty of food to eat

        I want a world
        Where I can speak
        And know that I’ll be free

        I want a world
        That’s full of love
        Where kids are taught that God’s above

        I want a world
        That doesn’t waste
        So when we’re moms and dads it's still a beautiful place

        I want a world
        Just like America
        Like the USA
        Cause even though
        Perfect it’s not
        It’s the best thing this world’s got

        Cause even though
        Perfect it’s not
        It’s the best thing this world’s
        Got

        So technically it's monotheistic and not supporting of religious pluralism. I still like the song.

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        Remember

        Back in 1997, I said that Hong Kong would be remembered as The City That Ate A Country.

        I've nothing to do with what is happening right now, but I think I was right.

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        NeoNotes — Are you trying to make me irritated with you?

        ??Mrs. Bookworm,

        Are you trying to make me irritated with you?

        You keep going off on these anti-pagan rants. This is what, the ninth or tenth? It's blood libel. You wouldn't stand for it if the targets were Jewish or Christian. I don't see why I should "turn the other cheek" when you target pagans.

        Nature worship as such is not the problem. Any more than the KKK (a nominally Christian organization) is. Intolerance is the problem. Demanding that others follow the rules of your faith is the problem. Yes, Nature is red of tooth and claw. So are humans when untempered by civilization. And no, I do not mean civilization is Christianity. I regularly tell people that Christians (and the other two Big Monotheisms) are nicer people when they aren't the only game around. Yes, Christianity says some pretty nice things in that book. But it only plays by it's own rules when there is competition keeping it honest.

        The vice or virtue is not in the label. It's in the words and actions of the individual. We're measured in the lives we touch.

        You want to go after someone for intolerance, be my guest. You want to go after someone for monoculture and echo chambers, go for it. You want to go after someone for Nature worship, then you'll have to start with me. And I will turn it back on you with a vengeance. Not nicely, like I usually do with these discussions. Because you would do the same if it were your faith that was attacked. And so would everyone else here.??
        NeoNotes are the selected comments that I made on other boards, in email, or in response to articles where I could not respond directly.

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        Vice and virtue

        The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
        — Winston Churchill
        tip of the hat to Toastrider

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